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Interviewed by Kim Thompson, excerpted from The Comics Journal #185
Steve Bissette has had one of the most fascinating careers in comics -- as much for the projects that didn't quite get off the ground (the final 1963 book, various projects at Tundra, Night of the Living Dead), as the interesting, varied ones that did (the relaunching of Swamp Thing, the horror anthology Taboo, and the beautifully-illustrated dinosaur biography Tyrant). In his massive interview with Kim Thompson in issue #185, Bissette delves deep into the entirety of his career with bruising honesty.KIM THOMPSON: So, do you want to talk about dinosaurs? STEVE BISSETTE: Hey, whatever you want to talk about, Kim, it's your interview! THOMPSON: C'mon, if anything is a collaborative effort, this is it. Now, I'm sure that the one question on the mind of every one of your readers is, simply, "Whatever happened to Tyrant #4?" BISSETTE: By the time they read this, #4 will be in their hands. There's a pretty full explanation in the letters pages. Actually, I just this morning showed the complete issue to a dear friend of mine. Nobody gets into the studio when I am working on an issue; even my kids don't see the books in progress at this stage. Book #5 is in tremendous shape as well, and some of #6 is complete. What happened is, Tyrant #4 grew from a 20-22 page chapter into a 70-75 page chapter. I've been working in comics professionally for 20 years now and I've never given myself - I've always given myself enough rope to hang myself [laughs], but I've never given myself the room to work at my own level as a storyteller. What I'm finding is that things grow very organically, which is not surprising to me given my orientation as an artist. Though the research is always somewhat daunting, that isn't the core problem. The story grew from the middle out: Last spring and summer, when I was finishing what I thought was #4 (which has now become #5), a great deal of front material began to manifest itself. That's when I knew I was in deep trouble and I gave myself the time to work out those problems. Issue #6 is taking shape, too, since some of what was #4 back in spring and summer has turned into #5 and the beginning of #6. It's an ass-backward way to run a periodical, I know. What I'm finding is that when I try to impose things intellectually on this material - let's not forget that the point of Tyrant is, I'm trying to get to that reptile brain that we all have. I want to strip away layers of artifice to arrive at something that feels, on a gut level, very true to me. Not true just in terms of scientific accuracy, but true as a story. That becomes part of the process as well. I can give you a very concrete example: For the chapter I'm muddling through, "Dreams and Bones," I wanted to come up with a visual metaphor for life in the egg, because this whole chapter of Tyrant is about that conclusion of the birth process - leaving the egg. I was looking for something to give visual and emotional form to what Tyrant has just given up, and that immediately suggested animals in shells. For much of the spring I struggled with a whole lengthy sequence that is not in that book at all - I saved the art and I'll probably run it as a side story later - with a snail. It seemed very logical to me, but the further I got into the completed art, the more I realized how inadequate that was, and something that will seem in hindsight stupidly obvious asserted itself: a turtle. The turtle became a character, as these things do, and it took me some time to do the hard research on what turtles lived in North America at the period of time that T. rex lived; specifically, a turtle that could withdraw its head all the way into its shell. Most of the turtles at that time were sideneck turtles, who actually sort of tuck their head into the shell, with a bit of their neck portruding, or the softshell turtles, which didn't fit my story requirements either. As I say, all this is going to seem absurd to the people reading this interview in hindsight, but that took time to work out as well. I honestly don't know what Tyrant's schedule is going to be. I've obviously given up on Tyrant being bi-monthly; I hope most of my readers have, without giving up on Tyrant. But I have worked diligently every day on Tyrant, I've done well enough with Tyrant that I haven't had to take on side jobs. The focus has been absolute; I've never had this kind of focus on my work in my life. These fucking interviews are a distraction, though. By the way, the organic growth of the chapter that turned from a single issue, what was issue #4, into #4, #5, and #6, mirrors exactly what happens to Tyrant #1, #2, and #3. What is now Tyrant #3, the whole issue that takes place in the egg, was originally issue #1, and then all the front story started to assert itself there. So if the people reading this interview can imagine Tyrant without those first two issues, you'll have some idea of how important this is to me in my growth as a storyteller. I don't think that the issue that now is #3 would have had nearly the dramatic impact I hope it has without those first two issues setting up everything about the nest, the mother, where we are, what creatures live around them. I'm hoping this isn't a pattern that I'm going to be fighting my way through for the next 15 years [laughs], but it may be. It may be that when I'm planning a chapter, it may just turn out to be the germ of a chapter. This may be my creative cycle. I'm hoping it's not! THOMPSON: I read the first three issues of Tyrant last night. They worked a lot better all three in a row than individually. BISSETTE: Why, thank you, Kim. They'll work even better when the first six are finished. This is the first creation of my own that's got a genuine scope to it. It gives me stretch room. THOMPSON: Reading the first one is like being shown the first two minutes of a movie then saying, "Okay, come back in a couple of weeks!" BISSETTE: Yeah, serialization has always been both the bane of periodical comics and, in another way, their great strength. When I read reviews in publications like the Journal where someone's reviewing something they've got a handful of issues of, it's sometimes absurd, like trying to write a review of a novel where you've read two chapters and you're going to assess everything from there. It's difficult, you have no idea what's going on in the head of the creator who's doing the book, and usually the creator has no fuckin' idea [laughs] where they're headed because the story is taking them in ways they didn't conceive. I know that's true for me. Narratives do impose their own peculiar paths and rhythms on the storyteller, of their own accord. THOMPSON: A lot of these stories, if you pick up an issue in the middle, you're just lost. In the case of Tyrant, the story still does make sense. BISSETTE: Well, thank you again. I am working hard to achieve that. I want to make sure each issue is a satisfying read. I know that when Gilbert [Hernandez] was doing the Poison River series in Love and Rockets, I really lost my way. It's not until you can sit down with the entire thing that it is a cohesive reading experience. That reinforced for me the need to think through what I was doing with Tyrant so that the issues would work in and of themselves. That's been one of the struggles with #4, 5, and 6, because we're talking three chapters that are essentially a morning's worth of action. And yet I have to find touchstones where I can come back to some visual point at the end of the movement that would constitute that issue and try to make it a satisfying and cohesive experience. That's been challenging. Issues #1, 2, and 3 were easy, in comparison, to break up into self-contained units. THOMPSON: Have you ever considered doing longer chapters? Of course, the economic realities are - BISSETTE: Yeah, it's really an economic thing. I've got to tell you that with Tyrant, I'm going in with a 15- to 20-year plan. The periodical format really does permit a number of things, the key one being you can eat while you're doing it. Last year I lived pretty comfortably; I'm paying three rents - my ex-wife's rent, my rent here, and my studio - and I've been able to do it off of sales and resales of #1, 2, and 3. I'd have done that much better if I had gotten #4, 5, and 6 out last year, but it reinforced for me one of the great benefits of self-publishing: when a book sells, the money comes directly to me. I'm not malingering, waiting for quarterly or bi-annual percentage royalty payments, with advances deducted or money deferred until returns are calculated, minus, of course, the publisher's lion's share of the income. And that has made it feasible for this entire year to just wake up in the morning and go into the studio and work on Tyrant. I haven't had to entertain all kinds of side jobs and diversions. Outside of my kids' needs, which come absolutely first in my life, Tyrant's it. I'm maintaining that steady focus. There are things I'd love to do. I've been invited on a number of digs which I would very much love to go on, paleontological digs, fossil digs. I couldn't do it last year because all of my money and time was going into the Spirit of Independence stop and keeping the books in print. This year I'm hoping to make time to do one of them. A dig would be a diversion, but that would be very beneficial, I think, in terms of the book as well. I would love nothing better than to be able to hold an actual T. rex bone in my hand. I've got castings in my studio - I have a casting of a tooth, one of the spur claws, and a replica of a skull - but I know I'd just feel that much more connected with my obsession. THOMPSON: Just for the record, how many printings have the first couple of Tyrants gone through? BISSETTE: For the record, book #1, the first printing was 25,000, sold out of that about September of 1995 and went back into print on that, about 6,000 copies. Issue #2 just sold out, that was a 21,000 print run, and I'm going back to press with a smaller quantity, 2,000, because of cash flow - enough to meet the demand right now. Issue #3 was printed at 20,000, and I've still got a few of those, but that will probably be going back into print soon. I will be keeping issues #1, #2, and #3 in print. Someone should always be able to check out Tyrant for $3 and see if they like it or not. These first three issues stand alone, or as a unit - it's gratifying to me that when you sat down and read all three, it was enjoyable for you. After that, book #4 and on, I will probably allow to go out of print at some point. I'll keep print runs going as long as sales demand, but once that first collection comes out, which will be issues #1-6, I will allow subsequent issues to go out of print. THOMPSON: Your approach to writing Tyrant is interesting. You essentially have two tracks going: scientific narration, which is very precise, heavy on technical terms. Then you have these more impressionistic, subjective dinosaur thoughts and actions. Do you ever worry that they might clash? Is it difficult to keep those two going, so one doesn't impede on the other? BISSETTE: You know, that's the dance I'm doing as the writer. There's a third track, which you've only seen a hint of, on the last page of book #3. There's a fraction of a word there in a word balloon. THOMPSON: Shades of Chester Brown. BISSETTE: Well yeah - boy, it's been fun reading Underwater. I understand! [laughs] Once Tyrant is awake and out there and acting in the real world, I will be using thought balloons. Let me get into this a little, since Comics Journal readers hopefully will be interested in this kind of horseshit. The approach to Tyrant took shape around a couple of impressions. First of all, I believe animals have as full sentient lives as we do. We rarely interact with animals unless they're pets; we don't interact with them in the wild. I live out here in the woods in Vermont, this is where I've been living most of my life. Nevertheless, for me to cross a wild animal's path is a fairly rare occurrence, and when it happens I'm just getting a little glimpse of that animal. But I've seen things as I've grown up that have convinced me, despite my Catholic upbringing, that animals have as full a sentient life as we do. I don't think we share many of the same concerns, so they remain very alien to us and easy for us to dismiss.I didn't want to approach these beliefs in the way that, say, John Gardner did with the novel, Grendel, where Grendel has this very sophisticated and self-aware voice. I think it was in Ken Kesey's novel Sometimes a Great Notion where a chapter is told from the point of view of the family's hunting dog. It was this wonderful impressionistic sketch of the thought patterns of this dog. I hope I'm not mis-identifying the novel, but that's my memory of it. And that really locked in my head. My last trip to England was about three or four years ago. I spent a week with Neil and Mary Gaiman, and about a week with Alan in Northampton. By that time I had actually started work on Tyrant, the first pages I had drawn in November of 1991. (That's what became Tyrant #3, with the egg.) So I had some stuff to show when I went to England, and I talked about the project in some depth with Neil and Alan. Prior to that I had had a couple of long conversations with Scott McCloud - Scott and [his wife] Ivy used to live in Amherst, Mass., and we became really close. Those are the three people that I talked to when I was looking for a voice for the Tyrant book. By the time I went out to England, I'd decided that there was going to be a narrative voice, which had to be, by necessity, rather dispassionate. That is the calm, cool, detached narrative voice that you're reading in Tyrant as it now exists. I also felt the need to shift gears as a writer, to put you in an animal's head for a second, without having to have some sort of narrative conceit to put you there. I want to be able to jump in there, insidiously, as I did with a sequence in book #2. If it works when you read it, at first you think I'm talking about this tyrannosaurus rex, who has something in her mouth -- THOMPSON: Yeah, that really threw me, I've got to admit. BISSETTE: -- and then you began to realize that it was this animal that she has in her jaws that I'm tapping you into. I wanted to have the ability to free-flow move in that manner as a writer because my agenda here is to make it as tactile and urgent a read as I possibly can; that you will share, on some experiential level, what I imagine the life of these animals to be. The third voice, the one that has only appeared, thus far, on the very last page of Tyrant #3, is Tyrant's. For the first few years of the book, when that voice is heard, it will only be pieces of words, fragmentary. As Tyrant gets older, those fragmentary words may grow into fragmentary sentences. But after Tyrant reaches his prime, as he goes into his autumn years, the interior language will begin to devolve again. I want to have the ability to jump into his head. That came out of a conversation I had with Alan during that trip to England. Alan was pacing the room, getting really exid about the whole project of Tyrant. I was saying, "I want to have a voice for Tyrant, but I don't want to anthropomorphize these animals." The closest beings we have to dinosaurs in the world today are birds. To me it's an emotional connection: When you look at a bird's eye, man, that is alien to us. We don't reject it the way we do, say, a crayfish or a clam, where there's just nothing there emotionally that we can connect with. But with a bird, the form of the animal, the role it plays in our lives, we take it for granted, they're around us all the time... but when you get a glimpse of one, you are drawn to them; they're clearly alive, and there's something there that we, as human beings, can relate to. But when you look in that eye, it is alien to us. They do not think what we think [laughs]. I don't want to lose that with Tyrant. When I showed Michael Ryan the art to #1, he responded to the eyes - he thought I'd captured that "otherness." That meant a great deal to me coming from Michael, who's a paleontologist. It's going to be a real tight-wire act. But I do want to be able to put you in Tyrant's head. During that conversation with Alan, I was talking about one of the issues I had sketched out, wherein Tyrant has his first sexual encounter with another T. rex. That fascinates me - these animals that are built like machines of death! [laughs] What is it that kicks in on an instinctual level that prevents them from killing each other when they interact? Alan was pacing the floor going [in Alan Moore accent], "Yeah, it'd be something like, you'd be thinking, 'Meat! Not meat!'" [laughs] "'Meat! Not meat!'" We were in hysterics that night, but it steered me toward an approach to that third voice in Tyrant, which is Tyrant's voice. That's a bit of the voice that's imposed in book #1, when the mother lays the egg and she realizes these aren't things to eat, these are hers, these are "not meat" - there's echoes of Alan at that point. [laughs] Alan and Neil had considerable other input, as did Scott. All this was important to finding that voice to the book.I just finished a review that I'm running in Tyrant #5 for Robert T. Bakker's first novel, Raptor Red. It was a hard review to write because it touched upon the reasons I'm doing Tyrant as a comic instead of a prose novel - I could have done it as a prose piece, and I'd have had no trouble selling it - was those fucking Latin names [laughs]! Your eye stops dead on a page when you're confronted with a word like "velociraptor," or "tyrannosaurus rex." I don't care how well versed you are, how natural those words seem if you're a dinosaur nut - it stops your eye dead. With comics, I don't have to name these creatures; I show them. If I'm careful with my writing, I can put you in that world. That's why doing it in comics is most important to me. I think it's a perfect medium to tell this story. THOMPSON: That makes good sense. It looks like you're really enjoying drawing again. BISSETTE: Oh, I'm having more fun, Kim, than I've had since I was a kid. I can't wait to get to the studio each day. A week or two ago, Alan and I were talking about how one's own creative life shapes one's personal life, and vice versa. Taboo paralleled a particularly dire and painful period in my life, and lasted throughout it; did it precipitate that darkness? I don't believe so, but it did prepare and strengthen me, and it definitely reflected and became a vehicle for the volatile emotional turmoil I was forced to confront day in day out. I emerged from that period renewed, eager to tap back into the instincts that first led me to draw as a child, and explore those instincts fully with the skills I now have as an adult. And voila! 1963 drops in my lap, and I'm a partner in exploring the childhood love of comics my partners Rick and Alan shared. But those 1963 obsessions were not my own - it made me ache to explore my primal obsessions, alone. 1963 was my ticket to do just that, with Tyrant. When I was working on 1963, Dave McKean engaged me in a very intense conversation in which he challenged my working on such a frivolous venture. Dave argued that we have to use the precious time we have, as artists, to absolutely do the best work we are capable of. I guess 1963 was my Arkham Asylum - it was a lark, but I would not have arrived at Tyrant without it, financially or creatively. But I must say Dave McKean's argument also prompted my getting on with it with such focus. It's been more rewarding than I dreamed possible.So, in this new phase of rebirth, reawakening, and reform as an individual, Tyrant is an ideal vehicle for my exploring and expressing that interior reality. Tyrant is also about mortality, which concerns me more now that I am in my forties. I've already lost two dear friends this year. The interpersonal exchange I have with Tyrant is a fuller and more honest merger of my personal and creative lives than I've ever experienced. That energy and sense of adventure is, I think, visible in my drawing one again, and it feels great. As I said earlier, things are tight at times, it's feast or famine, but it's all I have to do now. And I just love the drawing. You're probably seeing the purest love of drawing that I've ever demonstrated in this field since I began working in it professionally. You just have to be patient between issues. I enjoy the process more than the final product. THOMPSON: Which is how many issues, again? BISSETTE: I'm looking at 15 years, Kim. I started thinking this was a 10-year project, but with this past year... I started doing this after doing '63, and I was cocky; I thought, "Oh, I can do this every other month." I didn't foresee the research dilemmas that I would hit, I didn't foresee the struggle between my "penciler" and my "inker" - the internal battles over how to best approach my art. Of course, Dave Sim did, and had some pretty intense words for me about that over dinner one night! That helped me get a handle on that internal struggle. It's been quite a learning curve - last year was a steep learning curve for me. Finally, really self-publishing. There are a lot of issues there other than the drawing, as you know. It took time to absorb all that, and to arrive at a battle plan to go into this year with. My plan is to get four issues out this year. I know where my story is going. Tyrant has a fully-delineated beginning-middle-end.One of the things that happened when I was doing Swamp Thing was, Alan, John, and I were having a fucking blast when we were doing the series story-by-story. Some of them were two-issue stories, some were one-issue stories, but we didn't know where we were going next; we were just on the ride. When Alan came up with "American Gothic," it regimented our progress. There was this procession of issues - here's our ghost story, here's our werewolf story - and my passion dried up, and not just because of all the business difficulties with DC that I can't talk about. It was also that creatively we had boxed ourselves in. So with Tyrant I'm leaving myself room in every issue to see where the story takes me. To my mind, some of the best pages I've done were things that, at four o'clock that afternoon, I didn't even imagine I was going to do, and at six o'clock that night I was frantically getting it down so that by next morning the page would be done enough that I could come in and roll on what had hit me that afternoon at 5 p.m. I've never given myself that sort of creative latitude. I've always worked in this field with the parameters most cartoonists and writers in this field work with: You have eight pages to tell your story. Or you have 24 pages to tell your story. Or you have three issues to tell your story. And it has to be done next week. I'd never given myself the breathing room to cut loose, and I was almost always involved in a collaborative venture. So, I'm looking at 15 years, maybe 20. THOMPSON: And long that is. BISSETTE: Well, actually, it's not. Fifteen years from now I'll be 55. What was Curt Swan doing when he was 55? What was he boxed into? What was available to him at that point in his life? I don't want to be trying to do fill-in stories or covers or back-up stories, or praying that Swamp Thing is going to have a comeback [laughs]. I want to forge my own path here.
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